[…] the words. Picture, for example, “as independent as a hog on ice.” According to Evan Morris, The Word Detective, this lovely phrase expresses the hog’s predicament perfectly. “While he’s technically […]
and:
September 27th, 2011 at 5:12 am
“He’s independent as a hog on ice” also appears on page 266 (chapter seventeen) of the novel “A Thief of Time” by Tony Hillerman. The quote is used to refer Dr Randall Elliot, a very peculiar (scientist) character of this novel.
Neil Hand:
April 15th, 2013 at 7:06 pm
I stumbled across the expression for the second time (the first being in a Tom Waits song) in Part One, Chapter Two of Robertson Davies’ The Lyre of Orpheus. Wondered if Waits had picked the expression up from this book: “Independent as a hog on ice, he thought, in one of the Old Loyalist Ontario expressions which popped up, unbidden, in his mind when least expected.” Maybe Davies reckons he knows the origin, or maybe he’s inferring that the character in question, Simon Darcourt, thinks he does.
Beth:
June 16th, 2013 at 3:59 pm
I only heard this phrase y-day. Thought maybe it was a reference to cold ham… :-)
michael loren:
March 6th, 2014 at 12:08 pm
I had a patient use this expression.. her father used it to describe his daughter as very independent, with a mind of her own. The likely simple meaning.
I have a friend who recently took up curling and she mentioned there is a “hog” line on the ice. I think the stone needs to get past this line to be a valid stone. This expression may have some meaning to an experienced curler.
Dan McCurdy:
June 9th, 2014 at 2:08 pm
It seems to me that while ‘a hog on ice’ may imply freedom with no ability to negotiate direction, is a smile-provoking little oxymoron, the more apparent word-picture invoked is that of sheer ‘no progress’ absurdity. Rather than over-thinking the obvious in order to draw an oxymoronic debating point, the faux intellectuals have sentenced themselves to the hog’s dilemma.
Richard Hultquist:
August 18th, 2014 at 3:47 am
I have always heard it used as meaning a hog is helpless on ice.
See “INDEPENDENT AS A HOG ON ICE & Other Curious Expressions
Deke Thomas:
September 12th, 2014 at 10:55 pm
Robert Ansoin Heinlein used the phrse in “Lost Legacy”, a novella first published in the late 1940s, but I get the sense thar RAH is using it to mean that the hog is extremely independent; you obviously aren’t going to herd it with a section of fence, as you could with swine on dirt or concrete. He writes:
“Thanks, darling,” the doctor answered, “but I’d much rather hear about the Mad Scientist and his Trilby.”
“Trilby, hell,” Huxley protested, “She’s as independent as a hog on ice. However, we’ve got something to show you this time, Doc.”
Laura:
December 14th, 2014 at 3:12 pm
My grandmother (b. 1891) used this expression and it was understood to mean, independent to one’s own detriment.
Clay Commons:
January 8th, 2015 at 7:18 pm
John Gould of Maine opined that the expression referred to the sublime peace exhibited by a butchered hog lying on a slab of ice – free from all the worries of the world. I have only his word for it.
James Stewart:
January 1st, 2016 at 12:31 am
The phrase comes to light courtesy of Carl Sandburg, who uses the expression to describe the city of Chicago. I have had occasion to ask some rural people with experience with hogs and they are divided. About half say that a hog cannot walk easily of ice. The other half insist that a hog has no trouble walking on ice. So, take your pick. If the expression is to be consistent with other things that Sandburg said about Chicago it would suggest a large animal walking forward despite slipping and sliding while receiving no help from outside.
Mary Clark:
January 16th, 2016 at 10:21 pm
My family has used this expression for years. Just a week ago someone finally asked what the source was. I really didn’t know! I have always thought it meant exactly that: a hog skittering around on ice unable to help himself and woe betide anyone trying to help him.
Hmmmm….now I have to research “woe betide”….
Anonymous:
April 11th, 2017 at 5:58 pm
You are correct Laura. I have heard this expression all my life and it always described a person who would not accept help no matter how much they needed it and usually resented the offer. It described my grandmother to a T
Chris:
April 28th, 2017 at 10:22 am
I encountered the phrase a little differently. It was used in The Whisper of the River, by Farrol Sams. The character said he was, “serious as a hog on ice”. I think this makes more sense in the context of a trapped or scared hog.
ron:
May 19th, 2017 at 1:48 am
Laura. Absolutely correct. A hog on ice cannot stand once it has fallen. May not be able to move off the ice at all. But it will fight any attempt to help it. Your grandmother gave the proper meaning as was commonly understood prior to the middle of the last century. And the saying is “Independent as a hog on ice”.
I encountered it in a fantastic book called “Night Train at Wiscasset Station.” The book includes photos of daily life in rural / coastal Maine in the early 1900s.
Minneapolis:
July 27th, 2020 at 8:51 am
I don’t know when Tom Waits wrote CEMETERY POLKA but Edward Abbey used the term in 1972 in his book ABBEY’S ROAD:
“Connie strikes me as being every bit as shrewd, tough, and independent as the boss himself. Independent as a hog on ice. The sparks must fly when these two cross each other. I tried to imagine Gloria Steinem explaining women’s rights to Connie Nunn. Connie would laugh her all the way to Adelaide. Connie was born liberated.”
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Herding Cats |:
June 14th, 2011 at 1:24 pm
[…] the words. Picture, for example, “as independent as a hog on ice.” According to Evan Morris, The Word Detective, this lovely phrase expresses the hog’s predicament perfectly. “While he’s technically […]
and:
September 27th, 2011 at 5:12 am
“He’s independent as a hog on ice” also appears on page 266 (chapter seventeen) of the novel “A Thief of Time” by Tony Hillerman. The quote is used to refer Dr Randall Elliot, a very peculiar (scientist) character of this novel.
Neil Hand:
April 15th, 2013 at 7:06 pm
I stumbled across the expression for the second time (the first being in a Tom Waits song) in Part One, Chapter Two of Robertson Davies’ The Lyre of Orpheus. Wondered if Waits had picked the expression up from this book: “Independent as a hog on ice, he thought, in one of the Old Loyalist Ontario expressions which popped up, unbidden, in his mind when least expected.” Maybe Davies reckons he knows the origin, or maybe he’s inferring that the character in question, Simon Darcourt, thinks he does.
Beth:
June 16th, 2013 at 3:59 pm
I only heard this phrase y-day. Thought maybe it was a reference to cold ham… :-)
michael loren:
March 6th, 2014 at 12:08 pm
I had a patient use this expression.. her father used it to describe his daughter as very independent, with a mind of her own. The likely simple meaning.
I have a friend who recently took up curling and she mentioned there is a “hog” line on the ice. I think the stone needs to get past this line to be a valid stone. This expression may have some meaning to an experienced curler.
Dan McCurdy:
June 9th, 2014 at 2:08 pm
It seems to me that while ‘a hog on ice’ may imply freedom with no ability to negotiate direction, is a smile-provoking little oxymoron, the more apparent word-picture invoked is that of sheer ‘no progress’ absurdity. Rather than over-thinking the obvious in order to draw an oxymoronic debating point, the faux intellectuals have sentenced themselves to the hog’s dilemma.
Richard Hultquist:
August 18th, 2014 at 3:47 am
I have always heard it used as meaning a hog is helpless on ice.
See “INDEPENDENT AS A HOG ON ICE & Other Curious Expressions
Deke Thomas:
September 12th, 2014 at 10:55 pm
Robert Ansoin Heinlein used the phrse in “Lost Legacy”, a novella first published in the late 1940s, but I get the sense thar RAH is using it to mean that the hog is extremely independent; you obviously aren’t going to herd it with a section of fence, as you could with swine on dirt or concrete. He writes:
“Thanks, darling,” the doctor answered, “but I’d much rather hear about the Mad Scientist and his Trilby.”
“Trilby, hell,” Huxley protested, “She’s as independent as a hog on ice. However, we’ve got something to show you this time, Doc.”
Laura:
December 14th, 2014 at 3:12 pm
My grandmother (b. 1891) used this expression and it was understood to mean, independent to one’s own detriment.
Clay Commons:
January 8th, 2015 at 7:18 pm
John Gould of Maine opined that the expression referred to the sublime peace exhibited by a butchered hog lying on a slab of ice – free from all the worries of the world. I have only his word for it.
James Stewart:
January 1st, 2016 at 12:31 am
The phrase comes to light courtesy of Carl Sandburg, who uses the expression to describe the city of Chicago. I have had occasion to ask some rural people with experience with hogs and they are divided. About half say that a hog cannot walk easily of ice. The other half insist that a hog has no trouble walking on ice. So, take your pick. If the expression is to be consistent with other things that Sandburg said about Chicago it would suggest a large animal walking forward despite slipping and sliding while receiving no help from outside.
Mary Clark:
January 16th, 2016 at 10:21 pm
My family has used this expression for years. Just a week ago someone finally asked what the source was. I really didn’t know! I have always thought it meant exactly that: a hog skittering around on ice unable to help himself and woe betide anyone trying to help him.
Hmmmm….now I have to research “woe betide”….
Anonymous:
April 11th, 2017 at 5:58 pm
You are correct Laura. I have heard this expression all my life and it always described a person who would not accept help no matter how much they needed it and usually resented the offer. It described my grandmother to a T
Chris:
April 28th, 2017 at 10:22 am
I encountered the phrase a little differently. It was used in The Whisper of the River, by Farrol Sams. The character said he was, “serious as a hog on ice”. I think this makes more sense in the context of a trapped or scared hog.
ron:
May 19th, 2017 at 1:48 am
Laura. Absolutely correct. A hog on ice cannot stand once it has fallen. May not be able to move off the ice at all. But it will fight any attempt to help it. Your grandmother gave the proper meaning as was commonly understood prior to the middle of the last century. And the saying is “Independent as a hog on ice”.
CB:
December 5th, 2019 at 11:19 am
There is a fantastic image of a hog on ice by Maine phototgrapher Kosti Ruohomaa. It’s here: https://semioticapocalypse.tumblr.com/search/kosti
I encountered it in a fantastic book called “Night Train at Wiscasset Station.” The book includes photos of daily life in rural / coastal Maine in the early 1900s.
Minneapolis:
July 27th, 2020 at 8:51 am
I don’t know when Tom Waits wrote CEMETERY POLKA but Edward Abbey used the term in 1972 in his book ABBEY’S ROAD:
“Connie strikes me as being every bit as shrewd, tough, and independent as the boss himself. Independent as a hog on ice. The sparks must fly when these two cross each other. I tried to imagine Gloria Steinem explaining women’s rights to Connie Nunn. Connie would laugh her all the way to Adelaide. Connie was born liberated.”