Murder of Crows, etc.
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Cybercow:
July 16th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
We’ve just decided that the plural for “doofus” is to be: “doofi”.
We further hereby propose the collective noun for more than one doofus to be “a chagrin of doofi”.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
Adult Orthodontics Gal:
August 18th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
The constant puns like the brace of orthodontists are really annoying. If you read los angeles times for example, their headlines are full of them, quite annoying don’t you say? Katty
ed: not as annoying as the commercial link you put (and I removed) under “brace of orthodontists.”
Ruby:
August 29th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
I have read that a Murder of Crows came about because crows have been known to kill a dying cow.
David Hughes:
September 23rd, 2009 at 10:57 am
Is there a collective noun for LOONS? (a lunacy or loonacy of loons?) A friend just returned from Maine where she had seen ten or eleven loons at once and didn’t know whether it was a “flock” or something else.
Thank you!
words1:
September 30th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
For loons, I think “a conspiracy” would do nicely.
Wobiwan:
June 21st, 2010 at 12:39 am
One search team…… A whole google of searchers ???
Joseph Lyons:
August 14th, 2010 at 1:27 pm
I recently decided that the collective noun for more than one nun is a “pinto”.
Goatscrote:
August 24th, 2010 at 2:12 pm
Amusingly this ‘article’ is cited in Wikipedia as one of two sources for the expression even though it gives the square root of bugger all as evidence.
orly:
September 21st, 2010 at 12:55 pm
@Goatscrote:
I also ended up here from Wikipedia and while I agree with you that this is not an appropriate primary source citation, I wouldn’t go so far as to take the root of bugger-all from it. This article does provide you with the sources (James Lipton’s “An Exaltation of Larks”, 1968 and Dame Juliana Barnes, “The Book of St. Albans”), which are what the wiki article should have referenced in the first place.
Thanks for an interesting write up. Just ordered “An Exaltation of Larks.”
pamina:
October 23rd, 2010 at 2:09 am
a tattlery of comments
Javier:
November 3rd, 2010 at 1:16 pm
I would like “a rage of comments”
Michael Westerfield:
November 8th, 2010 at 4:52 pm
The correct term for a group of crows is a flock. The term “Murder of Crows” is poetic at best and has only come into common usage since the book, “An Exaltation of Larks”, listed it, and various authors thought it was a clever title for mystery books and movies. No ornithologist uses the term and most crow fanciers avoid it. Far from being murderous, crows are very family oriented, and frequently show behavior that might well be considered altruistic. Check the crows.net website for more information about crows.
barton cole:
December 20th, 2010 at 1:57 am
Per the American Society of Crows and Ravens – or at least, per their policy of mutual support (as crows themselves are known to do), the correct term is a “Caucus of Crows.”
1. Sounds like something a crow would say;
2. Rhymes with “raucous,” and
3. Suggests a group with an agenda, perhaps secret.
It’s worthy of being a meme, so I promote its use where I can.
I’m out on an island off the NW coast, where we don’t have American crows, but rather Northwestern Crows Corvus caurinus – another name that sounds like someone asked a crow.
Although crows are despised by some as nest-robbers, their alarm calls when predators threaten are well understood by other species; songbirds indeed benefit greatly by the crow’s alert protection.
Jim:
January 3rd, 2011 at 1:13 am
Mr. Wewsterfield clearly hasn’t researched his response above. If he did he would find that theterm Murder of crows originated in the 1400’s. Nothing to do with any modern day book……………..Have a “barrel of laughs”, folks..
Sean R:
March 7th, 2011 at 8:03 pm
I always supposed that term hinted at the idea that if you kill someone and leave the body in some remote or hidden outdoors location, a “murder” of crows might reveal your secret.
Mark:
April 5th, 2011 at 12:34 am
How about a “flush of toilets” when refering to you know what?
Hunt:
April 18th, 2011 at 6:53 pm
I have assumed that a Murder of Crows referred to their nest robbing. When a group of them move through an area in the spring they are very good at robbing baby birds from the nests. One or two distract while the other(s) get the babies.
Tyrskald:
April 18th, 2011 at 10:31 pm
I’ve never heard of a Caucus of Crows, though certainly, I’m familiar with a Murder of them. I do like the explanation for Caucus, however.
Ravens, I have seen are often named an “Unkindness.”
I propose a name for a collection of basset hounds, based loosely on one of their most famous anatomical featurs… I name a group of these cute and comical canines, a “Lobe of Basset Hounds.”
Thoughts? Email me at Tyrskald@aol.com
Thanks!
Squiggy:
August 25th, 2011 at 2:03 pm
Jim: Your evidence being? Or are we just saying things like they’re facts now?
“Gosh, Jim didn’t research his comment or he’d have seen that ‘a murder of crows’ is as old as language itself!”
jb:
November 21st, 2011 at 5:13 pm
it is because the have been seen hunting small game -I have seen them kill and eat an entire nest of young squirls and have seen a video of then killing a samil of young rabbits
Christian:
November 24th, 2011 at 11:03 pm
Hey Jim, maybe you should read the article before commenting.
How about ‘ a string of asses….’
B:
December 14th, 2011 at 1:58 pm
I studies environmental science with two ornithologists and they did call it a murder of crows. Additionally, Christian and Squiggy need to lay off Jim. If either of you had actually read the article, you would have seen that it supports what he said and that Westerfield obviously did not even read it!
Michael Westerfield:
March 15th, 2012 at 9:06 pm
Jim, please note that I stated that the term had “only come into common usage” since the publication of “An Exaltation of Larks”. I did not say that it first appeared in that book. It is an old British term which was not commonly used until it appeared in the recent popular book along with a host of poetic or archaic terms for groups of other creatures. It has been made even more popular by its use in titles of mystery books, names of music groups, etc. The fact remains that it is quite inappropriate to use to describe gatherings of these social, intelligent, and relatively peaceful birds. http://www.crows.net You could also enjoy my recent book, “The Language of Crows: The crows.net Book of the American Crow.” http://www.crows.net/crowbook.html
Michael Westerfield:
March 15th, 2012 at 9:09 pm
I assure you that I did indeed read the article. I simply disagree with the use of the term, regardless of the tradition behind it.
Aisha:
April 4th, 2012 at 8:47 pm
Hi there, I was just gonna say, corvids are actually more intelligent than dogs. (yeah cause they’re according to tests as smart as a chimpanzee) What a slap in the face to all the dog lovers. Now, I have nothing against the furry canines, but I love me my corvidae. Also, I hereby name a group of jinglepots, which is a word for stupid people: “A cacophony of jinglepots”.
Aisha:
April 4th, 2012 at 8:50 pm
@Michael Westerfield: Yes, they are quite family-oriented and altruistic, aren’t they? I’ve seen a nestful of them and the female won’t let anyone near it! Like, not into it, but she considers a four-kilometer radius from her nest her territory! I seriously think crows and I have much in common–starting with our hatred and mistrust of babysitters!
Lee Esquibel:
May 22nd, 2012 at 10:43 pm
In ancient Japan, because of the difficulty of feeding rural families, the very elderly were taken to a mountaintop in the winter where they were left to die. It was fervently hoped by the family that the elders would die of exposure before the crows got to work on them. Their departure conserved the limited food supply for the rest. One of Japan’s traditional plays “Sakurayama” is about this gruesome practice. Tokyo and Yokohama have the largest crows I’ve ever seen. They look to have bodies about 18 inches long and are armed with 3 inch beaks. They’re intelligent, brash, noisy, and fearless and the term, “Murder of Crows” fits them perfectly.
Frogerb4:
May 26th, 2012 at 5:21 pm
How about a “pliney of poets” or a “fliver of Fords”? I mean, if we’re going to coin phrases, at least have some fun with it.
Dina Kazanowski:
May 27th, 2012 at 8:56 pm
Is it true that a “congress” of baboons is an acceptable
group name used to supplant “troop?” I know that language is constantly changing, both words and definitions, but how often is “congress” used in reference to baboons?
Fixit:
May 29th, 2012 at 5:01 pm
LOL @ Dina..
to answer your question, I would say at least 5 to 10 times a day on CSPAN.
David MacMillan:
July 12th, 2012 at 4:45 pm
It’s quite common for a term to apply to more than one species. For example, one can have a herd of cattle or deer or bison, etc.
However, it wasn’t until I read the works of the great author, Patrick F. McManus (Professor of English at Eastern Washington State University) that I learned the term “murder” applies not only to crows, but it also applies to wives !!
bconf:
July 19th, 2012 at 2:04 pm
How about a Congress of loons!
John Allen:
August 12th, 2012 at 4:10 pm
I have heard that a group of crows is also referred to as a congress. Near my house are several large pine trees. once a month of so 50 to 100 crows meet there and caw at one another for hours. At that I can see where congress came from. And once they start cawing I can hear where murder came from. It is not what they do, but we would like to do.
Kt3:
August 24th, 2012 at 11:26 pm
Hi John Allen
It made me smile to read yr comment, my son is frequently invaded by 100’s of Sulphur Crested Cockatoos in the trees outside his house and the noise is unbearable. We thought “An execution of cockatoos”, would be appropriate.
Usul:
September 9th, 2012 at 8:09 pm
I wonder why a group of sheep are called a Flock, like they were birds.
johnsmith:
September 16th, 2012 at 1:43 pm
My wife and I give scraps of food to A “murder” of crows here in town. One day near here one was hit by a car and injured. The others attacked it viciously. We chased them away but the injured one flew too with the others in pursuit. This made me think about why they may be called a murder of crows. If what we saw was an example of crow behavior that could be the reason for the “murder” designation.
Shaneem:
September 20th, 2012 at 3:38 pm
If you hadn’t heard the cane and abel story,here it goes.After murdering his brother,Cane sat there without knowing what to do with the body.Cane, having committed the fratricide, became exceedingly troubled in his mind, and carried the dead body on his shoulders for a considerable time, not knowing where to conceal it, till it stank horribly. And then Allah taught him to bury it by the example of a raven, who, having killed another raven in his presence, dug a pit with his claws and beak and buried him therein.
arif mahmood:
October 20th, 2012 at 10:49 am
i want to know about the age of the crow in sub continantal
Steven:
October 30th, 2012 at 12:55 pm
My contribution is less academic, more “pop culture” (though only “pop” back in the 90’s). I was curious a long time ago about one of my favorite pop music groups of the ’90s that go by the name “Counting Crows” and one of their songs which was titled, “A Murder of One”. When I heard the collective “murder” as describing a group of crows, I put 2 and 2 together (that makes a “couple” of twos, to be apropo). I admit that up until today, I thought “murder” was the correct (and current) collective, not “flock”. So today, as I was attempting to prove this to a friend, I stand corrected. Still, a great band nevertheless.
Patrick:
November 15th, 2012 at 9:30 pm
I read a caucus of crows will form from a large geographic area specifically attack an owl; their natural enemy. Certainly their intent is to “murder” the owl if possible. I am not familiar with other species so intent on such genocide, except humans of course.
Patrick:
January 1st, 2013 at 11:11 am
;-) lol, no not a dying cow, but another crow that is sick or injured and dying, sort of “bird euthanasia”.
Richard:
February 17th, 2013 at 12:20 am
So would 2 or 3 crows be considered attempted murder?
admin:
February 18th, 2013 at 2:53 am
Ten points.
NWovalfan:
February 27th, 2013 at 1:12 pm
Funny that no one has mentioned Alfred Hitchcock’s “The Birds”. There certainly was murder there!
Jeffrey Jay:
April 25th, 2013 at 8:54 am
An Annoyance of Trolls?
Lucylu:
May 4th, 2013 at 6:33 pm
This admittedly is farfetched, but what if “murder” is a mispronunciation of another word, like “martyr,” which, I checked, is derived from “martys,” which in the 12th century was used for “witness?” I prefer to think of crows as witnesses, rather than murderers.
Charles Norman:
May 21st, 2013 at 11:29 am
Johnsmith is right. I once came upon a crow half-lying in the ditch on the side of the road. It was being aggresively attacked by another crow that was only half heartedly defending itself.
In the trees at the edge of the ditch were about two dozen crows giving raucus encouragement to the attacker.
It certainly seemed to me that murder was being done. unfortunately as I appproached they all flew away, including the victim, so I did not get to see the final result.
In the middle ages people were much closer to the land than we are today, perhaps incidents like the one above are not uncommon and were well known to the people of the time.
For what it’s worth I was reminded of teen-age swarming or cyber-bullying. Regrettably our politicians behave in the same way at the merest hint of a scandal.
wayne bruinekool:
June 29th, 2013 at 11:54 am
The Congress of Baboons was mention earlier.
kevin:
July 3rd, 2013 at 11:08 am
Crows form into flocks to literally murder large birds of prey. A few gather, make some noise, more gather, make more noise until hundreds of crows are in a flock. They then attack hawks, eagles and owls and clear them out of the neighborhood. I live in the suburbs of Boston, and several times in my life have I see a massive group of crows ominously gather to murder their predators. To me, the name murder only makes sense because that is what large groups of crows do.
Harvey Kalmeyer:
July 10th, 2013 at 2:40 pm
In Denver CO I have seen crows behind fast food establishments step on a ketchup packets and peck at it until they can get the ketchup. They change their footing to squeeze it our of the packet.
John:
July 13th, 2013 at 6:08 pm
I just call them a “Big Bunch of Black Birds.”
Roger:
August 25th, 2013 at 8:10 pm
Institute of loons
Alphabet of jays
Speight of sparrows
Round of robins
Muddle of mocking birds
Hotel of herons
Aegis of egrets, and finally,
A jones of wordsmiths!
PJohn:
November 20th, 2013 at 8:53 pm
Very amusing to witness these fervid attempts at application of rigid logic to understanding of these terms. Were that a likely route, then there can be no understanding our youth, who daily seem to coin new words of no redeeming – or logical – value whatsoever. Personally, I enjoy the color they lend to language, and see no point in arguing over whether one “likes” one term or another, nor in insisting that each be rigidly confined etymologically. When etymology is certain, it’s interesting and frequently useful in the search for nuance in expression. When it’s not, then the variations simply exist without known reason. Duh. Speak as you wish – the informed may upon occasion understand you.
…. and kudos to the contributors of wit herein extant.
Eugene:
January 11th, 2014 at 11:01 am
We have in our neck of the woods lots of turkey vultures, the most graceful of fowl in the air and the most competent of clean-up crew on the ground. We use two collective nouns to describe them: when in the air we call them a “swirl of vultures” and when feeding a “banquet of vultures.”
d. weinstein:
January 25th, 2014 at 6:05 pm
What about crows on Bay 1 in Brighton Beach??
James Twelves:
February 13th, 2014 at 1:03 am
…the way you describe crows as “social, intelligent, and relatively peaceful” you could also be describing a serial killer on their down time…
…don’t take it so seriously, crows have had a reputation as harbingers of death, evidently for at least over 600 years that is recorded, and certainly for far longer…they kill their own, can kill cows, and are also known to hang around a dying persons vicinity, no one is questioning their intelligence…..yes they’re social, if you count a wake a social event…where there is smoke there is fire…
Jay Bloomfield:
April 20th, 2014 at 10:43 am
It’s with a sad heart that I report that Harvey Kalmeyer has passed this evening at 5:00 PM, Saturday, April 19, 2014. A nurse and a good friend, Bill Cook, 303-489-6669, were at his side when he passed. Regards, Jay Bloomfield bloomfieldjay@hotmail.com
Nicholas:
May 10th, 2014 at 4:18 am
I would have to see the direct data to believe that corvidae are as smart as chimpanzees. I have seen many “scientific” conclusions drawn from data that does not support such conclusions and certainly not to the standard of science.
Nicholas:
May 10th, 2014 at 4:23 am
This is how I found myself. A meme said attempted murder and showed two crows. I was like “What?”. So then I was told what a murder of crows is and I researched it to find the origin… which I have not yet found; just guesses.
Nicholas:
May 10th, 2014 at 4:26 am
I think you’re onto something. It seems that in a number of different circumstances groups of crows kill and this was probably considered a very fascinating behavior in the days when there was less variety of human inventions and less information exchange.
Elizabeth Symanski:
June 19th, 2014 at 8:49 am
What is the word for a group of baboons? How about monkeys? Thanks!
cyburbanyte:
September 25th, 2014 at 9:45 pm
Science and poetry. Estranged bedfellows. But with a little lubricant the friction can be fun.
Ric Grehan:
October 25th, 2014 at 3:54 pm
If there are only two crows is it an attempted murder?
Malcolm Hein:
November 17th, 2014 at 9:25 am
A “wait of doctors?” That should ring a bell with most of us.
Jeffrey Buxton:
December 25th, 2014 at 10:41 am
How appropriate. Maybe a Congress of thieves?
Penyblaster:
January 7th, 2015 at 7:38 am
Very interesting article, or should I say, a big bunch of words. Bunch is my favourite collective noun and I feel it should used in more situations, where other collective nouns are quite frankly pretentious and boorish.
I have a hard time believing that “murder” of crows is of such old vintage. It sounds like a very recent invention… and I think it sounds stupid and wanky. I will never use it and I will teach all children in my family that it is incorrect English
trackrabbit:
January 30th, 2015 at 2:34 pm
how many crows does it take to make a murder?
I believe 3 or more. A burning question.
Steve Staples:
February 23rd, 2015 at 2:13 pm
It had always been my understanding that it was a “murder of crows” if they were on the ground… a flock if in the air. A gaggle of geese on the ground… a flock in the air. Yes? No?
jp:
July 18th, 2015 at 6:27 pm
I recently ran across another word for a group of geese; a “skein” (pronounce skan, long a)is a flock of geese or ducks in a V formation during flight.
John G:
October 3rd, 2015 at 10:56 am
“sounds stupid”…”is incorrect English” Yup! :)
mnrobj:
November 6th, 2015 at 10:24 pm
According to the band Counting Crows a “Murder of One” is an omen for sorrow, however a murder of crows is by definition plural so it would follow that a murder of one is not a murder (an attempted murder perhaps). Or maybe it’s not so simple, after all one man bands certainly exist. Is a train locomotive without any cars still a train? Can you reach a consensus among yourself?
To attempt to answer your question, the dictionary describes a “group” as “any collection or assemblage of persons or things”. A minimum quantity is not specified although it is clearly refering to persons or things in the plural, so I would conclude that two or more things constitute a group, therefore two or more crows make a murder.
Answer Guru:
January 1st, 2016 at 12:40 pm
No, regardless of their present state (grounded or airborne) they are still considered a “murder”. Would you call a flock of pigeons something else based on their activity? A herd of cattle is still a herd whether moving, sleeping or being tipped over. :)
Ralph Cavaliere:
June 30th, 2016 at 9:19 pm
How about a congress of baboons? How appropriate.
Joe:
December 9th, 2016 at 7:25 pm
Murder, as a noun, does not have a numbered definition regarding crows. Flocks and Gaggles are defined as one would expect. The more use this silly collective noun gets, the more likely it is to gain prescriptive English credibility–such as bootylicious. 100% of its modern use comes from a Homer Simpson quote and a movie title that was probably too was inspired by Homer J.
cjl
sonny e:
December 19th, 2017 at 4:57 am
Both statements are incorrect, The standard laws of grammar would apply.